My M37 Experience

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.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:12 pm
thus far.... ;-)


Hi all, this might wander a bit so forgive me in advance.

First up some background. I'm a 40 something clay shooter from the UK, shooting around 3 years now. My main gun was/is a Browning Maxus Semi and I very much enjoy it. (in the UK very few would tell you to start shooting with a semi auto but I liked them so took no notice, the Mrs also).
As I got a little better and more confident my thoughts turned towards a nice pump action. Over here the Winchester SXP, the Benelli Novas, Remingtons and Hatsan pumps are everywhere, and for the most part, nice and competent guns they are too, but me being me, I wanted something a little different.

I looked around for a while but nothing much that took my fancy turned up and then one lazy day I happened across the 12g Ithaca M37. ( I later found out it's was made in 76)
A little digging revealed it's Browning heritage and it's unusual bottom loading, bottom ejecting design. A few phone calls later and it was winging its way to me. (at this point I hadn't seen it in the flesh).

It duly arrived and I went to pick it up, eager to have a bash with my new (old) toy, and off to the local clay ground we went.
Stood in the stand, 2 shells were loaded, the weapon racked and I took aim.

"Pull"

BANG

CHICK.....

Damn it, jammed.

The first shell had failed to extract and the 2nd had jammed in the action above the lifters with nowhere to go. Bugger. Not a good start.

A quick barrel off, extract the live shell, extract the stuck shell, reassemble and try again.

I think I fired around 20-30 shells that day and had several jams of the type described above. Not a very good first experience. The shells in question were Eley Firsts, 70mm case, 28g load.

A second outing a week or so later saw 50-60 shells go through it without any issue. Great stuff, maybe it was a settling in thing. (It was a good a reason as any at the time) These shells were Eley Olympics, 70mm case, 28g load.

The next outing with the M37 resulted in more frustrating jams and a feeling the gun could not be relied upon, which is the worst feeling in the world as far as guns go. At this point I'm starting to think I've done my money on a duffer. The shells here were Gamebore Evos, 70mm casing, 28g load.

At home I took once fired shells of the type that failed to extract and loaded them into the barrel of the M37. (the barrel was off the gun) I even tapped them home lightly to stick them in the chamber as much as possible. (reassembled the gun) Racked the action and every one extracted without fail.

I was thinking at this point that its a 40 year old gun and maybe the extractors needed replacing but this test gave me the impression that maybe they didn't. What was the difference, why would they extract happily at home but not in the stand.?

So, immediately after firing, when the case has just expanded and is warm, it won't extract, but will later, when it has cooled and contracted. Perhaps.

It was at this point a theory started to form that the casing, having expanded after firing was sticking the shell in the chamber enough to stop it extracting properly. A look at the shell types I had used revealed one interesting fact.

The shells that 'seemed' to extract ok (the Olympics) had a longer 'brass' length than the shells that failed to extract. This lead to a search for shells with long brass. (although this is more a case of what was around locally that fitted the bill rather than anything else.)

Any road up, a box of Eley Superbs was purchased, the brass length of these being around 14mm, (or just over half an inch in old money) and off we went to test the theory.

50 Eley superbs later, without any issues, my theory seemed to have some merit. 50 isn't a lot I grant you but it was an encouraging start.

Some more superbs and Olympics (10mm brass) were bought and put through the gun. All extracted first time without issue.

At time of writing I've now put a few hundred of these shells through the M37 and had no further problems with failures to extract.

pic to illustrate the differences...

Image

I'll stick to these shells in future and I'm now really enjoying my Ithaca but I thought I'd post it up in case it might be of help to others.

Happy hunting

:-)

.270 WIN
Posts: 429
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:50 am
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:54 pm
Greetings from across the pond. This issue comes up from time to time. It is often related to cheaper shells. There seems to be a few root causes. First the chamber may be a bit on the small side of the specifications. A careful honing of the chamber area may fix that. Second the extractor notches cut into the barrel are longer than they need to be. This was never a problem until the advent of cheap metal in cheap shells. The shell base expands to much in to the notches sticking the shells. The fix to that is to weld up the extractor cuts and then file them back out by hand. Lastly I have a gun that was giving me fits when I first got it. I was able to determine that the extractor notches where not lined up properly with the extractors. After a few attempts of adjusting the barrel yoke on the magazine tube I finally got it. By the By there is another Ithaca owner in England that visits this forum, his name is Mark. You may enjoy talking with him. Good luck!
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.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:07 pm
Welcome aboard, Young Man.

So, it may be worth my while trying to find a cartridge with long "brass" but short OAL.

As I think I've told you, my S.1 M37 is broken (again), so I'm using the Chiappa for PSG. On each of the last two outings with it, when I've finally managed to operate the gun flawlessley, an ill-timed hard extraction has stuffed up my stage timings.

As I say, I do give M37 and 1887 chambers a light polish at each cleaning in order to try to reduce these problems...

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:13 pm
Hi Cutcher, hi Mark,

I'm not sure what the root cause of the problem is, whether any of the things you describe would fix the extraction problem for good but I'm happy to chug along safe in the knowledge that using certain carts will be ok. That's enough for me.

Myself and Mark have spoken many times on a Uk forum and it was he who pointed me at this one :-)

Mine being a 3 shot, cart length is not a problem for me, I often forget you are psg'ing and therefore prefer as many as possible. I haven't looked into carts beyond those I've tried. 65mm and long brass might be a tall order on our shores. What is your normal cart of choice?

T
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.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:11 pm
TbirdX wrote:65mm and long brass might be a tall order on our shores.


Indeed.

In fact, I've *never* come across a hull that was *real* brass - all of mine stick to the magnetic pick-up stick.

Question for Americans: what proportion of the carts that you use have *real* brass?

What is your normal cart of choice?


I usually use Gamebore "High Bird" in 28g fibre. They're the most easily available short cart for me. (I have a local branch of Scats.)

I once tried 2" carts intended for old guns. Their OAL was 44mm, IIRC. They converted my 7+1 M37 DSPS into a 10+1...

They fed well but, being only 24g, would not make the minimum required MV ("power factor") for competitions.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

.270 WIN
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:33 pm
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:58 pm
Try a new extractor spring.The spring can become depressed with age.My 1973 Ithaca Model 37 was doing what yours is doing.Replaced the spring and no trouble since, no matter what shells go in the chamber.

In the field after the firing the shells have expanded and are warm.When you tried to put the same fired shells in the barrel the shells were cool. That's why they would come out with no trouble.

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:22 am
Update.

Having now used the M37 a lot and put a lot more shells through it at the clay ground I haven't had any further extraction issues. The caveat is I've stuck to the shells described above and haven't tried anything other than the Superbs or Olympics (or blues as they've been renamed now).

I'm happy to chug along like that without changing the extractor spring. If it's not broke, don't fix it :-)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:07 pm
Welcome to the Ithaca Owners Forum TbirdX !!

How about a few pics of that vintage '76 M37...!?

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:54 am
Update,

have been using my 37 every couple of weeks without any further issues, until last weekend.

Three quarters of the way through an 80 bird round I ran out of my preferred cart (Eley Olympic Blues) and switched to the Eley superbs I had in reserve. Everything was fine until, bang, shick shick, click.
At this point I realised the 2nd cart hadn't loaded but had been dumped on the floor.

This then happened every few shots. Carts would load up fine, first cart would chamber, fire, extract all fine but somewhere in the racking process the 2nd unfired cart would get dumped at my feet.

It has never happened before or with the Eley Blues. Is this a known issue for any reason?

I shall get some more Eley Blues and retry, see if it continues to occur with those, although, like I say, it hasn't before, and update once I have tried them.
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.270 WIN
Posts: 422
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Location: phila pa
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:32 am
dumping shells is an indication of a weak shell stop spring.
its a small spring and on an old gun its not uncommon to need replacement.

the spring itself is pretty cheap and its easy to replace

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:01 am
Ah, yes, makes perfect sense. Thanks for that, I'll have a look see into some maintenance. :-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:45 pm
Keep us updated TbirdX...!!

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:05 am
Well today, it dumped a bit more than the 2nd shell. The shell stop itself fell at my feet. I think the pivot pin disintegrated and that, I assume was what caused my 2nd shell dump problem.

Anyway, I put the gun away and used the Maxus for the rest of the round and I shall get around to stripping it and seeing whats missing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:19 pm
Damn shame....keep us in the loop TbirdX !!

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:34 am
Will do. :-)

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:37 pm
So, a quick strip and it looks like I've lost the shell stop screw, the pin disintegrated (I found a tiny bit of it) and the spring. Not a disaster, just got to get some new ones I guess.
I assume its part 20 and 21.

The website also shows 2 other part 21's that are bent at right angles so I'm a bit confused as to which I need. I assumed that the screw and pin were separate but it may have been one piece looking at the website. I'm guessing it's just the screw type I need on my 76 model. Anyone throw any light on that?
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.270 WIN
Posts: 136
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Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:33 am
TbirdX wrote:So, a quick strip and it looks like I've lost the shell stop screw, the pin disintegrated (I found a tiny bit of it) and the spring. Not a disaster, just got to get some new ones I guess.
I assume its part 20 and 21.

The website also shows 2 other part 21's that are bent at right angles so I'm a bit confused as to which I need. I assumed that the screw and pin were separate but it may have been one piece looking at the website. I'm guessing it's just the screw type I need on my 76 model. Anyone throw any light on that?


The pins were threaded - like yours - on the earlier M37s and changed to a bent bit of wire (which I prefer) on the newer models.

Funnily enough, I need a new threaded pin, myself. I've been trying to contact Zak in order to buy some parts but, for some reason, communications via email just don't seem to work anymore. :(

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. More and more of our club members seem to be buying cheap box-fed shotguns. They look a hoot to shoot. Since I only have two S.1 shotguns slots, it may be time for me to abandon Ithaca and go Bora instead...
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:04 pm
Cheers Mark,

I will dig back though my mails, somewhere I have had contact from Ithaca and will get back onto them.

If I do manage to make contact I'll let you know.

Ta

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:09 pm
Well it's been a week since I mailed them and no response as yet. :-(
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.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:32 am
TbirdX wrote:Well it's been a week since I mailed them and no response as yet.

Which email address did you use?

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:41 pm
As soon as I wrote that I got a response, with a firm price for the parts I requested. I've just this second emailed confirmation to go ahead and sent payment details.

I'll update further as and when.

p.s.

I used service@ithacagun.com and the very helpful Jeremiah
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.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:25 am
TbirdX wrote:As soon as I wrote that I got a response, with a firm price for the parts I requested. I've just this second emailed confirmation to go ahead and sent payment details.


Ah! Good news, indeed.

I used service@ithacagun.com and the very helpful Jeremiah


I'll have to get off of my bottom and give them a "poke". (Why is it that I "prevaricate around the bush" so much, these days? I must be gettin' old...)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:16 am
Just had a shipping confirmation today as well, top marks to the folks in Sandusky.

Oddly enough, I haven't used my Maxus semi auto since I purchased the M37 but was forced to when the M37 broke.

I shot my highest ever score with it first time back. I've put it down to using a tighter fixed choke and having to concentrate on the targets more with the pump.

That's my excuse anyway. :-)
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.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:47 am
TbirdX wrote:Just had a shipping confirmation today

Even better. :)
top marks to the folks in Sandusky.

Yes, they do have a *very* good reputation for after-sales service.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

.22LR
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:11 pm
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:43 am
Picked up my parts from the PO...and paid another 23 quid for the priviledge :(

Oh well, hopefully I'll get around to fitting them a bit later today.
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