Ithaca Model 37 Troubleshooting

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:34 pm
bullseye wrote:Picked up m37 only missing the barrel this weekend at a gun show. Tried to cycle some 12ga thought it and it jams up. Seems like the carrier is hanging up on the round. Put a 12 ga slug barrel on to see if it changed but didot help. Could it be a 20 ga?. I looked up the serial number and could only find a date. The number is 371590051 if any one can give me some info it would help.



was the shell you tried a 2 3/4 or a 3 in shell ? there were 2 sizes of receivers. a 3 " shell would have a hard time in a 2 3/4 receiver. the 3 in receiver is 1/4 in longer of course

if you can measure the diameter of the magazine tube, I can tell you what it is, as I have extra 12 and 16 ga tubes here at the house to measure
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:36 pm
kjbeck73 wrote:Looking over my gun and noticed the Spring Shell Stop Screw is missing. I bought a replacement online, along with a new spring. When I slid the trigger assembly out, I expected the shell stop lever to fall out, but it did not. Apparently the pin on the end of the Spring Stop Screw is broken off and still holding the shell stop lever in place. The threaded portion of the screw must have backed out and fell to the ground. I have no idea how or when this screw broke off, but the threaded part of the screw is gone and I can't figure out how to get the rest of it out for replacement. I guess I will have to find a gunsmith who can drill out the pin.


are you sure that it is just not junked up to where you can't see the little slot in the screw ? it is a very tiny screw, you need a jewelers screw driver to get it out. spray some carb or brake cleaner into the hole and use a good light and your best glasses or magnifying lense to check it out.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:45 am
drcook wrote:are you sure that it is just not junked up to where you can't see the little slot in the screw ? it is a very tiny screw, you need a jewelers screw driver to get it out. spray some carb or brake cleaner into the hole and use a good light and your best glasses or magnifying lense to check it out.


Funnily enough, I have the same problem with one of M37s. The screw comes out, but appears to have broken off just below the threaded portion. The result is that I'd be *very* interested in any advice about how to proceed...

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:09 am
if it is actually broken off below the threaded portion, then the end of the pin is just floating around.

once again, get the carb or brake cleaner and get the screw hole AND spring shell stop immaculately clean. it would help if you disassemble the receiver so you can work on it

then 2 tricks come to mind

get a "D" cell battery and a small steel nail, small enough to go into the hole. get some wire and wrap it around the nail (the nail should be a long, hardened trim nail) then attach the wires to the battery. you are making a magnet like we made in science class in school (see links below) if the pin is loose, you might be able to lift it out. it might take some manipulation of the spring shell stop to get the hole aligned if it is broken below the receiver

even a very small steel pin punch would work and give you the length to hold on to it

you could also try blowing it out with air. you can get small ended air nozzles at Harbor Freight BUT BUT BUT watch your and everyone else's eyes as if it does fly out it would be a little missile

you can also try tapping the receiver with a RUBBER OR PLASTIC mallet to try and jar it loose to drop out after it is clean.

you might need to put some penetrating oil in to loosen up any rust

those little screws were never meant to be bottomed out and tightened up and if a gun is rusty you should always soak them with penetrating oil to get them loose before trying to remove

http://education.jlab.org/qa/electromagnet.html

http://www.sciencebob.com/experiments/electromagnet.php
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:19 am
Thanks, Dave.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's well gunked up down that hole.

I'd forgotten the magnet trick - I have a couple of disk-drive magnets lying around; I'll give *those* a try.

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:42 am
Keep us up-to-date on the progress of the fix.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:36 pm
ChAoS wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's well gunked up down that hole.

I'd forgotten the magnet trick - I have a couple of disk-drive magnets lying around; I'll give *those* a try.


The gun is now apart. :)

Again, thanks Dave.

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:27 pm
Mark,

Are you saying the magnet trick worked ?

dave
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:07 am
drcook wrote:Are you saying the magnet trick worked ?


Well, *sort* of, Dave.

I stripped the gun down and took the threaded portion of the pin out.

Before trying the magnet, I held the stop to prevent the holes becoming mis-aligned, turned the receiver upside-down and tapped the side with a plastic-handled screw-driver.

When I turned the receiver back over, I could see that top of the broken pin was flush with the top of the stop. Because the pin was a bit further out, I could tilt the stop so that I could extract the pin *without* it going through the hole in the receiver.

That's when I used the Magic Hard-Drive Magnet. :)

Here's a tip, though: don't put the magnet down on the bench next to the disassembled parts...

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. The M51's stock bolt is still refusing to come out. :(
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:23 am
ChAoS wrote:
drcook wrote:Are you saying the magnet trick worked ?


Well, *sort* of, Dave.

I stripped the gun down and took the threaded portion of the pin out.

Before trying the magnet, I held the stop to prevent the holes becoming mis-aligned, turned the receiver upside-down and tapped the side with a plastic-handled screw-driver.

When I turned the receiver back over, I could see that top of the broken pin was flush with the top of the stop. Because the pin was a bit further out, I could tilt the stop so that I could extract the pin *without* it going through the hole in the receiver.

That's when I used the Magic Hard-Drive Magnet. :)

Here's a tip, though: don't put the magnet down on the bench next to the disassembled parts...

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. The M51's stock bolt is still refusing to come out. :(



Good deal. Now folks have a reference about getting them apart. I thought that might be the case but wasn't 100 % sure. If you consider the overall design, Browning and Pederson thought it through really well. I am sure it was designed so that the pin hole was drilled deep enough just in case this happened and the gun would be able to be disassembled exactly as you discovered.

The pin was never designed to be bottomed out and twisted on. When putting a new one back in, simply screw it in until it touches and then back off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. (this is what I do). I also put a little dab of grease on the threads to keep corrosion away.

I visually check my guns every time I pick them up. I now think that a monthly or so inspection of the screw and turning it to prevent it from seizing over time just might be prudent for everyone to do.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:25 am
drcook wrote:When putting a new one back in, simply screw it in until it touches and then back off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn.


I was going to ask what you did if you didn't bottom the scew out.

I visually check my guns every time I pick them up.


Same here. When PSGing, I also check a number of screws that are prone to "self-loosen" on my Ithaca M37 and Chiappa 1887. Of course, they *do* get shot "aggresively", as it were.

Unfortunately, it seems as if I'm one of those people whereby *everything* they touch falls to bits in their hands...

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Mark.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:12 am
Interesting. Great idea ;) ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:30 am
Dave,

drcook wrote:When putting a new one back in, simply screw it in until it touches and then back off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. (this is what I do).

Well, I've *finally* got the parts from Ithaca and had a go at fitting them.

I bought a new mag spring - a trivial replacement job, of course.

I bought a new Slide Pin and associated spring and stop pin. Again, not too bad - the stop pin fought valiantly, but I triumphed and the slide is now attached to the slide tube again. :)

I bought a new slide stop assembly. I've not tried fitting that, yet.

On a whim, I bought a new front sling swivel. That wouldn't fit into either M37 DSPS but I've not tried the M37 - perhaps the threads are different or something. (Perhaps, the threads on the barrels are a bit damaged.)

The *most* disappointing item, however was the spring shell stop screw. (The magnet trick worked - *again* - when I took the gun apart.) This item barely fits at *all*. It'll go in about a single turn before coming up solid. The *old* screw, of course, will go all the way in until the top is well below the edge of the receiver.

All in all - and certainly considering the *price* that I paid for these parts - I ain't that impressed.

There is *good* news, however: the M51's stock is now off. At some point, I'll get off of my bottom and take a photo of the inside of the rear of the receiver because I don't think that *mine* is "quite right". For example, there's no sign of a hole for the action spring retaining pin - assuming that I *should* be able to see it.

Anyhoo, I plan to try my main 'DSPS out at the week-end. I'd almost forgotten how to shoot a pump...

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:39 pm
After a *particularly* difficult failure-to-extract, I took a closer look at the fired hull. I thought that youse guys might be interested in the photos:

Image

Image

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:25 am
That is interesting, what brand of shell is that?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:44 am
ravengunsmith wrote:That is interesting, what brand of shell is that?

Gamebore. Specifically, their High Bird 65mm, (UK)#6, 28g, fibre. (I use them because they allow me to load 8+1 instead of 7+1.)

Regards,

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:45 am
Hi Mark
Exact same problem with Lylevale Express Pigeon Power Fibre wad #6, needed to rod the case out. I actually emailed the company, as I believed that it was a "hot" round and a quality control issue. No real response from them as yet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:52 am
Gamebore is a pretty good brand. I do know they use Cheddite hulls which are a good quality hull.
Check them against a different box if you have a caliper, measure the brass diameter and the thickness of the rim of a couple. I wonder if you got a bad batch. I've shot Kents (which is Gamebore here)
without an issue in my citori and they ejected fine (that has a tight Chamber, too)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:29 am
i'm willing to bet the gun would handle Remington or Winchesters just fine.

I mention this because while sharpening my reloading skills I spent a great deal of time in a reloading forum.
what I took out of this is that even though the same gauge shot shells look alike there are differences in European and American shells
not only the brass hull shape and thickness ,but in the rim , the rim thickness ,shape ,etc

I think early ithacas were made to cycle American ammo
not by intent ,but just because they just never considered the European ammo market at the time
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:17 pm
That's very interesting, Twisted. and totally plausible they'd fire certain brands over others. Also remember those older Ithaca's were chambered for American paper shells as well.

I have a Benelli that I will not shoot steel rimmed shells through. The rim on a steel shell is much thinner. The recoil on the benelli is so fast that when the shell hits the ejector, the rim tears causing the mother of all jams with two shells nearly occupying one space.

I totally forgot about that and you jogged my memory. Some guns just don't like certain shells.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:21 am
So, last week-end we had a practice session and I had quite a bit of "trouble". At the end of the day, I'd dropped 14 rounds onto the ground and, being the fussy bug ^H^H person that I am, I inspect and clean 'em before I'll use them again.

*This* time, however, I found these three:

Image

So, not as simple as ammo that me gun doesn't like.

I think that this is all related to the "sloppiness" of my bolt carrier when the action is locked. I've given the slide stop out of my "normal" (most-used) M37 to a mate to try to extend the end because it's *very* worn. Even so, using the trigger mechanism out of my "good" M37, there's a fair bit of movement when the action is locked and the forend is pushed backwards and forwards. (I'll try to take a copy of photos the next time I shoot.)

Thing is, I've never *seen* a new M37 to see what *they're* like re "sloppiness".

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. I think that I'll use my Chiappa, this week-end...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:16 am
raven will know better ,
but that looks like a weak mainspring.
ammo type should not effect that
as far as ammo dumping you got it with a worn shell stop.
if you sense play in the lock up look at the slide stop.
I've had to replace them before when I had excess play.the area is very small where it contacts the slide and its a high wear area


I feel for you guys across the pond ,the parts were talking about are common and cheap here.
I have everything listed above in my spare parts box.

I also get the feeling your m37s are shot a whole bunch more then your avg m37 in the states.
over here m37s aren't considered range guns ,they are guns that get kept in a closet till small game season ,and put back after it closes
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:55 am
twistedoak wrote:that looks like a weak mainspring.

All of the *other* fired shells that I've looked at seem to have been well hit.
ammo type should not effect that

Indeed.
as far as ammo dumping you got it with a worn shell stop.

That's one part that I have *not* bought. (After the last fiasco, I'm not that keen to order more parts. However, I have *not* spoken to Zak about them.)

As I say, I've never seen a new Ithaca - it could be that all the Ithacas that I've seen are well-worn. What I'd *really* like to be able to buy is a gun indentical to what I've got but *new*...

Here's a question for the (Ithaca) Collective: is there a documented "tuning" procedure for the shell stops? In other words, given the dearth of Ithaca knowledge over this side of The Pond, what should I do to try to fix them?
if you sense play in the lock up look at the slide stop.
I've had to replace them before when I had excess play.the area is very small where it contacts the slide and its a high wear area

That's the area that I suspect, of course. And I certainly agree about the wear - the chap I've given it to is going to weld a little onto the end and then I'm going to file it back into shape. (I'm doing this because the new slide stop that I bought won't fit without fettling, so I might as well try fixing the old stop before hacking away at the new one.)

I feel for you guys across the pond ,the parts were talking about are common and cheap here.
I have everything listed above in my spare parts box.

Yeah, I should've been born American. :)

I also get the feeling your m37s are shot a whole bunch more then your avg m37 in the states.
over here m37s aren't considered range guns ,they are guns that get kept in a closet till small game season ,and put back after it closes

Well, "yes".

A requirement of our club is that new members take and pass a UKPSA-run safety course. It's a two-day affair and, at the end of the second day, they put together a really loooong stage - maybe forty steels to be shot. When *I* took this course, after that last stage, the outside of my M37's (Parkerized) barrel was smoking from end to end and thirty-years-worth of accumulated crud liquified and ran out from under rear sight. Such fun... :)

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:01 pm
the shell stops do wear also ,on the end where they touch the shell to hold it in.
the most common cause for shell stop problems is the little spring.
now if your spring is good and the wear is minimal and the gun is still dropping shells some people have cured it by ever slightly bending the shell stop arm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:42 pm
twistedoak wrote:the shell stops do wear also ,on the end where they touch the shell to hold it in.

I'll have to take a close look at the shell stops; I have to admit that I've not really paid them much attention.
the most common cause for shell stop problems is the little spring.

A couple of years ago, I needed some parts (extractors, et al) and so I replaced the gun's spring shell stop spring as well.
now if your spring is good and the wear is minimal and the gun is still dropping shells some people have cured it by ever slightly bending the shell stop arm

Hmmm. Well, I've leave that option until the slide stop fix (read "bodge") has been attempted.

These problems are a real shame since, when the gun's "on song", it works very well indeed.

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. Thanks for your help.
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