Shotguns (non-Ithaca)

Moderator: LAZY EYED SNIPER

User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:47 pm
OK so here's one to make you wince!
stevens77b.JPG
stevens77b.JPG (82.35 KiB) Viewed 4267 times

A real unwanted stray, this one! Stevens Mod 77F. The most horrendous welding I have come across on a firearm, seemingly done in situ with the wood catching fire too! Fortunately I have a spare fore-end tube and wood (luckily Stevens and Savage parts have some interchangeability) The Internals, whilst all there, seem to have been glued together and are currently languishing in a gasoline bath. I am a sucker for these oldies and this has a 2 digit serial number similar to my Savage 30.
stevens 77a.JPG
stevens 77a.JPG (72.2 KiB) Viewed 4267 times

Still it was very cheap and I do love bringing them back to life!
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:16 pm
OK, so, confession and admission time!
Apparently, Physics and predominately Newton's 3rd law also applies to me!
Whilst the initial trials with the Valtro PM5 box fed pump seemed successful, in actual use it was somewhat of a disaster. I had focussed heavily on fast mag changes, but mass effect, inertia and unreliable spring tensions conspired to defeat me in my quest. Its no good having a fast change if the full mag is auto ejected at random!
Magazine retention seemed at first to be good, but the forces involved in the firing process, primarily recoil, felt recoil and the shooters grip and stance all contribute to altering the movement and therefore any equal and opposite movement of the gun and its constituent parts.
I had made the ambidextrous mag release so big that it had enough inertia from its own weight to self release. The springs which replaced the front solid rock and lock block became unreliable, it actually appeared when reported to me by an observer that the mag would let go front and back at the same time and drop straight down unlike what I was looking for which was a roll off the front lock.
Anyway, I have now passed the hybrid stage of push in, roll out, it simply cannot work reliably. I am currently working on a full magwell modification but am at the moment on the opposite side of the field with great retention but jamming magazines. I do not want to compromise and am working slower and hopefully thinking clearer now. I still feel that this shotgun has great potential and will continue my development whilst having a new respect for those who can tune and modify to perfection!
Watch this space
Last edited by impala59 on Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:17 am
Very interesting work...well done so far.
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:59 pm
Well a few days have passed and I have completed the further development of the PM5 saga. Whilst it has always been my aim to be able to return the gun to stock, I must admit to a couple of minor infractions. Although I would never drill or file in the pressure areas, I felt justified in a little magazine fettling, they were so individual where welded and formed that I needed to standardise the fit. Some would jam solid while others would slip through, upon adjustment to my work different ones jammed! Score 1 for a friend who suggested numbering the mags! Prior to continuing, I re-assembled in stock form and tried the first magazine that I worked on, it actually inserted and ejected better than before so I felt justified in gently bringing all the mags to the same dimensions. The Valtro PM5 is, in its stock form, a rattly piece of kit with very wide tolerances, I needed to tighten everything up for successful operation as a competition gun. My second "adjustment" was to drill a 4mm hole in the magazine release lever so as to facilitate a lightweight ambidextrous attachment, again, justified by it having no detrimental effect either in function or aesthetically when in stock mode.
Of course there are no standardised mag wells made for the Valtro, I looked at the Saiga one and decided that it would need so much cutting that it would be easier and far cheaper to fabricate, using materials I already had, with a view to manufacturing a "pretty" one once I had worked out all the bugs (and there were many, with more to find i'm sure)
Anyway here is the working prototype, a composite of aluminium, plastic and steel :

v52 (1).JPG
v52 (1).JPG (79.26 KiB) Viewed 4103 times


v52 (2).JPG
v52 (2).JPG (94.18 KiB) Viewed 4103 times


v52 (4).JPG
v52 (4).JPG (82.13 KiB) Viewed 4103 times


The main mag well is formed of two sections of cut aluminium box section, one inside the other to arrive at the correct dimensions. this is then attached to the recovered side-plates from the earlier version. All held together with M5 machine screws tapped and thread-locked in place. A plastic outer cover hides my machine and file marks. Mounted within the box are three "bales" type small cabinet latches with spring loaded 6mm ball bearings. These guide the magazine thru the well by running in the rim line on each side and on the rib at the back. Due to there now being no forward mag retention shelf, the magazine needs to be kept pushed forward so as to remain in position and to ensure reliable feeding. The bearings help but the springs are inadequate when fighting the pressure of the magazine spring when the bolt is closed (top shell pressing on the underside of the bolt carrier)
This foxed me for a while and I tried many ways to combat the pressure of the magazine spring to no avail. Then whilst jamming a piece of scrap in the rear of the well so as to cycle the action, it dawned on me, a small brass ramp epoxied to the rear of the magazine to engage as the magazine located and latched, problem solved! The function is now rock solid when the magazine is in place and lets go nice and smoothly when the mag release catch is pushed. I added a steel strength plate where the new magazine ramp engages to prevent the aluminium from fracturing.
Another area I addressed was the trigger housing front locating pin looseness. As previously stated, I am using the existing fittings to mount my mods and there was some random movement at the front of the trigger unit ( which also includes the rear mag catch and release lever) I replaced the spring pin tube with a tight fitting plastic tube which I then tapped to M5 for my mounting bolt, again nothing permanent but a fix which cured all the looseness at the trigger/mag release.
The reworked feed ramp (which was a noticeable improvement on the stock item in the previous incarnation) was modified from the earlier version by cutting off all the spring area and replacing with a solid block of aluminium with stainless steel wear faces. the front face of the mag well connects flush to this block. (picture on next page due to 3 pic limit)
All seems to be in order now, just need some range time to thoroughly check everything out. I am hopeful and hope that my confidence in this gun will bear fruit, its a great shooter, just trying to make it competitive. I'll update when trials done (wife and work permitting!)
Last edited by impala59 on Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:07 pm
Continued...........diagram of the front magazine locator and feed ramp differences
maglock conv.jpg
maglock conv.jpg (24.96 KiB) Viewed 4103 times
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:30 am
To continue the PM5 saga, I am happy to report that I now have it working reliably in its 4th version.
I have dispensed with the rear mag release, this was causing all sorts of problems as it moves in the same plane as the recoil and inertia of firing. I used the mag release housing to mount the new rear wall of the magwell. This is keyhole fitted in place and retained by the original mag release pivot drift pin. (This is in keeping with my stated intention of being able to return the gun to stock configuration if ever need be) The forward end of the magwell is one piece , comprising the locating lug, feed ramp, magazine stop and retaining pin hole. This is carved from a 1" aluminium billet and imparts strength to the whole magwell. It is a little bit "Tonka" but better too strong than too weak. Using this "one piece" construction has enabled me to eliminate the unsightly side plates of the earlier versions) The right hand side is 5mm aluminium plate for strength and rigidity. The left hand side is a laminate of 2mm and 3mm sheet to facilitate the entry of the magazine with its new side block. This block is brass, 25x10x3mm and is located on the magazines via one of the original peep holes with a countersunk hex screw, a touch of 2 part epoxy prevents rotation. The Magazine release catch on the left side is an spring loaded oversize 1" (25mm) lever which connects to a block which protrudes into the well 3mm. this gives a contact area of 75 sq mm with the magazine so retention is 100%. The magazines are now held securely, and, more importantly, consistently in the right place for accurate feeding and reliability. I have added to the mag followers a small plastic ramp which also assists with getting the right approach angle to the chamber. Another modification is the "Cactus Arms" mag extension. I found that my original extensions were a little on the flimsy side (not best suitable in the knockabout world of combat/practical shotgun!) and in fact I had a few magazine spring assisted fall-aparts which were embarrassing to say the least! The "Cactus Arms" unit is a solidly made ABS extension for the Saiga/Bora shotguns and was modified with a small aluminium plate to compensate for my slightly narrower magazines.
To close, I have yet to finally cosmetically finish and paint the magwell but with more testing and use to come I shall leave that until later. I may try and incorporate an ambidextrous release but will need to think long and hard about how to achieve that whilst keeping reliability. For now, I'm enjoying the fruits of my labours, but no doubt more tinkering will be done in the future, I love a challenge!
pm5 v4 (3).JPG
pm5 v4 (3).JPG (82.92 KiB) Viewed 3979 times

Right hand side, cleaner fitting, albeit a touch oversize
pm5 v4 (1).JPG
pm5 v4 (1).JPG (96.68 KiB) Viewed 3979 times

Left hand side, showing with "Cactus Arms" ext . giving 10 round capacity
pm5 v4 (2).JPG
pm5 v4 (2).JPG (104.39 KiB) Viewed 3979 times

The oversize mag release catch, follower assist ramp(blue), mag catch block (brass)
Last edited by impala59 on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:33 am
Due to 3 picture restriction continued from above;
Diagram of the development from stock to current of the crucial piece of the puzzle
maglock conv.jpg
maglock conv.jpg (68.5 KiB) Viewed 3979 times
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:41 am
impala59 wrote:This is carved from a 1" aluminium billet and imparts strength to the whole magwell. It is a little bit "Tonka" but better too strong than too weak.

Ever see the sci-fi TV series, "Firefly"? Your gun reminds me of the weapons in that series. (You don't call your PM5, "Vera", do you?)

It looks like you're havin' a shed-load of fun with that gun.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:16 am
Its been a mission that's for sure, my original plan was to have a box fed pump which would then trump the box fed auto boys when they got all ammo sensitive which they have a wont to do. Now the PM5 is not at all ammo shy, it will digest anything including reloads. Getting the mag loading right though was a lesson in measure twice cut once, although I should preface that with think four times first!
All I need now is a competition where ammunition becomes an issue and I can clean up!!
Seriously though, I still rate the PM5 for its simplicity, it was not designed as a competition gun, rather like the M37 and in the old days my beloved Colt Python. Nevertheless, its now able to perform as I wish and the only shaky part is the nut on the butt!
Rather like yourself I tend not to go the obvious way to my shooting but I enjoy it immensely, long may us quacks continue! Been looking at a martini action Greener GP, I should not have watched that rerun of Zulu............Front rank fire! Rear rank fire! Third rank fire! Team clay shooting with 3 birds flying anyone?

PS the PM5 and my Sabattii 1822 have been named The Fuglies by The Pigeon watch forum and the Frankenstein sisters by my club peers
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:59 am
PM5 cont...........A few practice sessions have confirmed the reliability and ruggedness of the magazine well and system(happily!) Unfortunately, the 552 sight that I was also testing fell off due to a poor fixing of the picatinny rail (now remedied) but I digress, the large 'slap' release button is easily reached and the mags drop out smoothly. I felt though, that a little finesse would assist when carefully aimed shots or restricted space dictated a slightly different approach. I reasoned that an ambidextrous release was not really feasible if I wanted to retain the simple, reliable mechanism. What I came up with is a simple lever attached to the top of the existing catch, (if it ain't broke don't fix it) which I can simply push up with my trigger finger to drop the magazine. I figured that for the amount of times that I would be shooting left-handed, I could live with the original catch.
Anyway, I will test it out this weekend and hope to report back in the positive
DSC_0050.JPG
lever attached to original (left side)
DSC_0050.JPG (88.36 KiB) Viewed 3878 times

DSC_0051.JPG
right side (lever in uppermost position)
DSC_0051.JPG (72.75 KiB) Viewed 3878 times

DSC_0056.JPG
short reach for trigger finger
DSC_0056.JPG (123.37 KiB) Viewed 3878 times
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:42 am
Real nice setup Impala...I'm impressed
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:08 pm
To continue, I am happy to report that all is well with the PM5 magazine system. From loading the magazines to inserting, feeding, ejecting and unloading, all functions are simple effective and reliable.
So begins the next phase, a sighting system that suits me. As I am right-handed but left eye dominant (some would call cack-handed!) I needed to find a way to fast target acquisition, accuracy on the move and again simple reliability. I use on my .22 an offset red dot that works for me so I have tried to duplicate that with sights and hardware that I have available and that I know are suitably shock-resistant. Also, as there is weak hand shooting in my chosen sport (where my left eye dominance is actually a help) I needed a bore line sight also. I already have the bore-line laser fitted under the barrel for close-in instinctive shots (it also is effective in smoky or dusty courses of fire where the visible beam makes target location easier)
What I have come up with, and will field test soon is the following; A relatively crude but simple and effective binocular sight system consisting of an offset green dot for my left eye and a bore-line red dot for my right eye. With the natural cant of my head when in the aim, I can see both dots. They converge at about 12 yards to a single point, together with the laser. Most of our steel plate targets are at between 10 and 15 yards so aiming is really easy with both eyes open and full peripheral vision. I don't know if this is innovative but I have not seen anything similar(maybe the forum members know of something similar?) I have attempted to demonstrate with the accompanying photos on a sheet of paper at 6 feet, which basically from my point of view at that close range gives an upside-down triangle, green dot top left, red dot top right and laser centre bottom. For left handed shooting , the green dot is redundant. Everything is known shock-proof and solidly mounted, just maybe looks a bit weird!
pm5sights (7).JPG
The current set-up
pm5sights (7).JPG (84.03 KiB) Viewed 3788 times

pm5sights (5).JPG
left eye view, right handed shot
pm5sights (5).JPG (111.8 KiB) Viewed 3788 times

pm5sights (6).JPG
right eye view, right handed shot
pm5sights (6).JPG (101.93 KiB) Viewed 3788 times

With apologies for my lack of photographic skill, but I hope that you get the idea
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:35 pm
binvis.png
illustration of (theoretical) solution
binvis.png (19.04 KiB) Viewed 3784 times
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:53 am
So. Are we going to see your monstrosity ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H thing of beauty in use during an RSC open match at Popham, this year?

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:15 am
Hopefully, when is the next date?
As I learned last year I need to get in early
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:55 am
impala59 wrote:Hopefully, when is the next date?

I just had a quick look at our calendar and it says that the next Open is on Sunday, April 30th.

Now, *usually*, the Crew Shoot is two weeks before. However, *this* time, it's on 2nd April. I don't know why. I mention the Crew Shoot because we usually have one or two places available for non-crew competitors who can't make the main shoot.

As I learned last year I need to get in early

Yeah, it's a bit popular. The site looks pretty much like this when the bluebells are out:

Image

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:25 am
Hi Mark
Entry fee duly paid for 30th
Look forward to seeing you there
Roland
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:52 am
impala59 wrote:Entry fee duly paid for 30th
Look forward to seeing you there

Oh, well done!

Unless sommat crops up, I should be crewing. (If it's nice, my cap'll say "ChAoS"; if it not, I'll probably have a wide-brimmed hat on of some sort.)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:57 am
A Brief update on my 'Binocular' sight experiment for the PM5.
It seems to work, up until the small (bore-line) sight gave up (battery shift, need to address that) I was finding that I could acquire and engage targets much easier and it felt very natural. I think that higher quality sights would be a vast improvement but nonetheless I am happy to move along this road. As an after-thought I had fitted, in case of a total failure, some flip up iron sights and these work fairly well too, particularly for slug.
Downside? well the gun definitely looks a bit strange. Some people like it, purists think it an abomination! Also, with the master eye sight 2" left of the bore, in some courses of fire it could contact or be obscured by the side of the barricade, if shooting left handed, but, as this is competition and not the real world I can live with that, if the briefing states 'left shoulder' I will be able to remove that sight for that course of fire
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:10 am
You didn't have anything to do with the design of *this*, did you? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U682yOpNafg

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:53 pm
Wow! how cool is that? :D
Unfortunately, despite being a bit past my 'best before' date and a bit long in the tooth, even I wasn't around in 1915!
That rifle illustrates perfectly what I find so fascinating with firearms, namely the way they work (that one clearly external) and has reawakened a pet idea of mine which I drew up plans for (and can't now find unfortunately :()
It was to make a self loading Model 37. I never found a 37 that I would risk, they were all too precious! Now if only I could find a real wrecker.......maybe I would have a go
What slightly put me off was Remington's failed 105 CTI bottom eject autoloader, which, while a beautiful piece of engineering was not reliable and was phased out after a short production run. I thought if they can't do it, how could I? But there again, they did take the Mag 10 and ruin that!
Anyway thanks for that link, I am sure many will find it interesting.

As an aside, perhaps you would email me with directions to Popham, looking at google earth, it seems that the entrance is from a layby on the Eastbound A303?

Regards
Roland
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 am
Location: Hampshire, UK
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:09 pm
impala59 wrote:That rifle illustrates perfectly what I find so fascinating with firearms, namely the way they work

Indeed.

Anyway thanks for that link, I am sure many will find it interesting.

The whole "Forgotten Weapons" channel is worth viewing.

As an aside, perhaps you would email me with directions to Popham, looking at google earth, it seems that the entrance is from a layby on the Eastbound A303?


This, I have done although my "Sent" folder seems to indicate that I had a little, um, "finger trouble" and sent two emails - one, "sans attatchment"... :)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:09 am
Now re-worked with a matching pair of parallax free dot sights plus magpul type flip-up in case of total tech failure...............

rather like how many people can you get in a Mini...how many sights can you get on your rail?!!

sightspm5 (1).JPG
sightspm5 (1).JPG (228.25 KiB) Viewed 4022 times
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:14 am
Location: Mitcham, South London, England
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:32 pm
Thought I would bring the forum up to date on some recent acquisitions in the non Ithaca area, usually bought very cheaply, privately or at auction. All are in full working order now after component level strip-down and some deep cleaning and subsequent function testing. I have been fairly fortunate in that no major parts have been required, just a few pins and springs etc.
Firstly, my first Winchester, a model 1200, 28" barrel, winchoke system, a very nice handling gun
Win 1200.JPG
Win 1200.JPG (68.69 KiB) Viewed 3080 times

A fairly early Remington 870 Wingmaster, 30" full choke. Not marine finish as it appears, I have stripped off most of the finish in preparation for a re-blue. This gun does need a trigger guard as some bright spark decided to drill lightening holes front to back for some unknown reason. Doesn't affect the gun but looks a bit stupid.
870RWM.JPG
870RWM.JPG (64.3 KiB) Viewed 3080 times

Thirdly an SKB 200E, ostensibly the same as the Ithaca 200E as made in the same place. With 26" imp and half choke barrels its a fast handler on pigeons and clays, I'm getting to grips with its clean up as it was in a fairly sorry state when I bought it. I will probably have the barrels re-blacked professionally as I think the gun deserves it. Nice, crack free wood will come to life with a total strip and Danish oil finish
SKB200E (2).JPG
SKB200E (2).JPG (76.8 KiB) Viewed 3080 times

So, some projects for over the winter, to add to all the others!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:49 pm
Very nice...keep us in the loop on the projects !!
PreviousNext

Return to Long Guns

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron