What On Earth Is This?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:55 am
Dear Forum,

I've only shot a handful of rounds through a semi-auto shotgun and know very little about them. A local(ish) gunshop is advertising this:

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/mobile/gunDe ... tOrder=asc

Can someone tell me something about this *before* I ring the shop?

Thanks.

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. Semi-auto? Ithaca? Somehow, that doesn't seem quite ... right.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:55 pm
This is a Ithaca model 51. I have two of them and like them very well. I personally find the recoil milder than that of a Remington 1100. It is a 3 shot gun one in the chamber and two in the magazine tube. The parts can be difficult at times to come by. They also have a reputation for breaking bolt carriers due to worn parts. I recommend STRONGLY that every new owner purchase and install a new action spring, bolt buffer, and receiver buffer to avoid having this happen. Not sure what source you would be able to get these from across the pond. I used Diamond Gun Smithing, the cost with shipping was about $60 US per gun. Let us know how it turns out.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:01 pm
yup that's an m51.
m51s are a niche gun to Ithaca guys .
while there not rare , they are uncommon but working their way towards rare.
I don't know how many made their way across the pond , but i'd guess its only double digits.

as mentioned the basic replacement parts needed only cost about $60us. that puts you under the 100lb law
these parts should be replaced because of age(the guns roughly 40yrs old).
the problem comes from people not doing so.
if you decide to look at the gun i'd personally remove the bolt carrier and inspect it,
its easy and fast to do.

check out the m51 forum ,I've made a few posts on the gun.
I personally love my m51s ,they are light shooters with a very simple design , and very simple to maintain
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:35 am
Thanks for the replies, guys.

I've had a surf and downloaded the PDF from Steve's Pages. I love the "no tools" dissasembly - all guns should be like that.

As for their scarcity, well I've never seen one - but then, I've *still* not seen any M37s other than my own. It'd be a nice addition to my Ithaca "collection" and, only being a three-shot gun, I'd not need a free "slot". (I'm currently only permitted two un-restricted shotguns.)

I'm a little wary of the carrier problem but, having already bought parts direct from Ithaca, I see no reason why I should not do so again. (I need a couple more M37 parts, in any case.)

I'll have to visit the shop and see what state it's in and whether they're flexible on price.

Thanks, again, for the info.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:37 am
Ithaca does not carry any parts for the m51.
basically the parts stock they had is gone.

les at diamondgunsmithing has the spring and buffers custom made.
the carrier is the hard part to find if its broken , but les does carry remanufactured ones.

the carriers crack because of weak springs and brittle buffers,
if you have a good carrier and you replace the consumable parts you should not have any carrier problems in the future.
when inspecting the carrier look at the thin spots for cracks or any flex ripples in the metal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:04 am
Ah. Being the "wrong" side of The Pond, perhaps I might give this one a miss, then.

Still, if I *do* happen to visit that shop and they *do* happen to be very flexible on price... :)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:16 am
The Ithaca Model 51 is a really good gun. I have a great one and the carrier is and has never been broken. I have replaced the spring and buffer, and bought an extra one of each for the future. If the carrier is broken and you can not get a new one the old one can be welded. I bought a new one on Ebay just a month ago. Don't need it but now I have a spare. It is a fairly common gun in North America years ago, and it has a big following and now is hard to get. A very comfortable easy shooting Gas operated semi. If a person were to have only two Ithacas, it should be a Model 37 and a Model 51. Just my opinion. I am a Canadian and sometimes it is a little difficult to get gun parts out of the USA but there are a few places in Canada that you can purchase parts if Canada is easier for shipping to UK. The price is not bad, buy it. Thanks Donald
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:15 am
yea ron sharp in Canada has parts also...
honestly the guns are worth the aggravation of procuring the needed parts if the carrier is good.

if diamondgunsmithing or ron sharp can't help , I may be tempted to send you some old lamp parts as consolation for your depression
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:25 am
Damn. You've all blown the gaff. If y'all had said, "Oh, no, the carriers break and parts are hard to get", I could've shown the shop this thread and, perhaps, they'd've gimme it for nuthin'. As it is, I'll have to plead poverty...

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:31 am
Dear Forum,

I've just realised that I'd not updated this thread, so here goes:

So, my cousin and I visit the gun shop and the gun is, indeed, an M51. And pretty "clean", to boot.

I explain about the known "problem" and ask if we can take it apart. The dealer has to go into his workshop in order to get the mag nut undone. But, inside the reciever, it looks good.

I inspect the slide just forward of the platform that holds the bolt. It looks OK. (This is the first time that I'd inspected the insides of a semi-auto. It all looked a bit ... "busy" to me.) We put it back together again, taking a leeetle longer than it took to get it apart...

I buy the gun without even haggling which, I think, does *not* impress my cousin.

We go back to his place and faff with it. It seems to chamber and eject my "snummies" (dummy rounds loaded into real hulls) OK. I take it home, faff briefly and then open it up to give it a quick clean.

But ... *disaster* - the slide has broken; not at the rear, where I was expecting, but behind the *front* platform. It was obviously not broken at the shop since the break was obvious when the forend was take off.

Looking more closely, it appears that, in my "excitement" at the gunshop, I'd missed the fact that that slide had *already* been broken and welded up. Not where *I* broke it, but an inch further forward, the other end of the forward platform, just behind the "hook" that holds the extension tube in place. Both the new break and old, welded-up break were on the same (left-hand?) side of the gun. Is that significant?

Since I'd intended to buy spares for it *before* shooting it, I'm not as disappointed as one might expect - overall, it *does* look in reasonably good nick. So, I'll soon be contacting Diamond, I suppose.

First, though, a couple of questions:

[a] I can't get the stock off. I can't undo the stock nut. Is the M51 just like the M37 in this respect? That is, is there anything else I need to do before undoing the stock bolt? (And are there any clever-arse ways of freeing one that is reluctant to let go?)

[b] When the slide and link are pulled out, there's nothing holding the action spring and plunger in - they just come straight out. Should they be retained by something? (They can be a bit fiddly to put back in each time...)

[c] Since I'm never sure how long it'll be before I next shoot a gun, I always oil the bores and store them muzzle-down. However, the M51's barrel has gas ports. Will oiling the bore - or even normal cleaning - cause crud to be pushed into the gas cylinder? Or does one merely clean out the cylinder each time the gun is cleaned?

Although I said that the gun appears to be complicated inside - and it *is* compared to an M37, of course - it's not as complicated as I was expecting. One thing I *don't* like is the way that the carrier release has to be pushed in order to load each round into the magazine. It's quite hard to push although, of course, I'm used to my M37 which, as a gun-buddy said, just "sucks the ammo in". (Also, this is likely to be a "safe queen" unless I *really* end up liking it for clays.)

I'm still pleased to have found and bought an M51, despite the problems.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:54 pm
it seems the previous owner never replaced any parts after repairing the slide.
the slide is taking direct recoil impact thus breaking.

I have seen slides with the hook broken off and if repaired correctly should be fine.
however the more breaks the more chances that the dimensions and alignments could be squewed.
how is the bolt buffer and receiver buffer??

ok , the buttstock is held by I believe a 9/16 6pt bolt.after removing it , you can access the receiver buffer screw.

the action spring is held in place by a small "L" pin that's under the trigger pack near the buttstock
often times when the slide slams back on recoil the slide link is swallowed into the action spring tube.(because of weak action spring and bad buffers)
the action spring tube has a flared end just inside the receiver.
since the link gets swallowed, the slide it self slams the flare deforming it.
I suspect the flare is damaged and the L pin is bent/broken or misaligned letting the plunger push past

and lastly the gas system is a dry system ,do not oil or let oil into the piston
if you want to oil for storage , just remember to clean it before shooting

the guns are really simple
remove the slide and bolt off the receiver frame (you did that already)
and push the 2 trigger block pins out to remove the trigger block.
no tools needed.

a lot of people don't like the carrier release,
but that said with a bit of repetition I found it pretty simple.
especially when shooting trap
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:31 pm
Thanks for replying.

twistedoak wrote: the slide is taking direct recoil impact thus breaking.


I haven't actually put a live round into the gun, yet. Given that the action spring managed to break the slide, is that an indication that it's OK, d'you think? (The spring measures 340mm (13-3/8") in its "relaxed" state.)

how is the bolt buffer and receiver buffer??


Well, I've taken the bolt buffer out and there's no sign of obvious damage.

I assume that I have to get the stock off before I can take a dekko at the reciever buffer.

the action spring is held in place by a small "L" pin that's under the trigger pack near the buttstock
often times when the slide slams back on recoil the slide link is swallowed into the action spring tube.(because of weak action spring and bad buffers)
the action spring tube has a flared end just inside the receiver.
since the link gets swallowed, the slide it self slams the flare deforming it.
I suspect the flare is damaged and the L pin is bent/broken or misaligned letting the plunger push past


OK, so I assume that I need to get the trigger pack out to investigate that area.

the gas system is a dry system ,do not oil or let oil into the piston
if you want to oil for storage , just remember to clean it before shooting


Understood.

a lot of people don't like the carrier release,
but that said with a bit of repetition I found it pretty simple.
especially when shooting trap


Yeah, I'm sure that I'll get used to it. I only shoot Sporting when I'm breakin' clays, so time spent faffing isn't an issue. (Except, perhaps, if I have a few "spectators".)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:47 pm
don't shoot it till you replace both buffers and the action spring.

I highly doubt it was the action spring that broke the slide tip .
my first guess is the slide was out of square after the first repair.
the action spring is roughly 40yrs old,it needs replacing.

I've been told that the action springs out of the factory were a bit shorter then they should have been.
either way , length really isn't the prob , its the compression strength.

you might be able to get a glance at the receiver buffer by looking inside for it , but even so , you won't be able to tell how messed up it is till you remove it.
the both buffers are a type of nylon and age degrade,despite any looks ,, replace them.

yes the trigger pack should be removed
its easy ,just push the 2 pins on the receiver through with a punch by hand
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:09 am
Thanks, 'Oak.

I'd find it hard to believe that the slide was broken when I bought it since the break is so obvious. It's not been fired since I've had it, so I can't see what else it *could've* been except the action spring closing the action. O'course, we won't know if it even *has* a reciever buffer until I investigate further.

I must say that it didn't occur to me that spring pressure could break the slide; I thought it was only *firing* the gun that could do that.

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:54 pm
again I highly doubt it was the spring that did it.
in all likelihood the slide was hammered so hard it was a weak spot already.
its probably better it broke now then later after you thought it was all good
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:28 am
twistedoak wrote:its probably better it broke now then later after you thought it was all good


Indeed.

If I *do* get it working, it'll feel damned weird - I'm pretty sure that I'll try to "pump" (or, mebbe, "lever") the forend after each shot... :)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:55 am
I had the same concern the first time I took a semiautomatic rabbit hunting. However every thing worked out fine and I did not try to pump it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:05 am
if anything trying to pump it is the least of your problems

after shooting a 51 for awhile I find I got to relearn to pump a 37 when shooting one
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:41 am
Well, guys, when the joyous day arrives that I get to *shoot* the '51, I'll worry about it *then*. :)

By the way, I'd appreciate it if one of you could check out the Pigeon Watch link cited in this thread and see if you get the "full experience", or not. The PW admin says that "guests" should now be able to view the PW thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1194

Bye fer now.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:51 pm
G'day, All.

I still can't get the stock off of my M51. Here's a question for y'all:

Is the tube holding the action spring hollow all the way down? Specifically, will any oil dropped therein be able to make it's way to the end of the stock bolt threads if I store the gun muzzle-up?

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. I had a go with a 45-70 (I think it was) lever-action rifle, today. Now *that* was fun... :)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:02 pm
I do believe it is.
i'd recommend a penetrating oil like kroil
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:18 am
twistedoak wrote:I do believe it is.
i'd recommend a penetrating oil like kroil


Thanks, 'Oak. I'll give it a try.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:58 am
twistedoak wrote:I do believe it is.

Well, *finally*, I've managed to get the stock off. And, "yes", 'Oak - you were correct... :)

I'll have to take some photos of the top of the tube because I can see no sign of a retainer for the action spring. I'm pretty sure that youse guys are gonna groan when you see what it's like...

Now, for a spot of light relief; I've been using my Chiappa 1887 for the last year and a bit because I've broken *all* of my Ithacas and I'm having trouble emailing Ithaca. So, for your entertainment, I present a stage from our last club match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaztoqH5HFM

Bye fer now.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 3:46 pm
you need to remove the stock,then push out the 2 pins that retain the trigger pack.
the trigger pack covers up the retaining pin.
it would be located in the space right behind where the rear of the trigger guard would be.
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:58 pm
G'morning, 'Oak.

twistedoak wrote:the trigger pack covers up the retaining pin.
it would be located in the space right behind where the rear of the trigger guard would be.


Yes, I've already had the trigger pack out. I don't recall there being anything that looked like a retaining pin. I'll have to look again...

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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